newLISP on Rockets

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hilti
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newLISP on Rockets

Post by hilti »

Hi!

Does anyone know who's behind "Dragonfly reloaded" ;)
http://newlisponrockets.com/

bye
Marc
--()o Dragonfly web framework for newLISP
http://dragonfly.apptruck.de

cormullion
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Re: newLISP on Rockets

Post by cormullion »

No idea. They haven't announced anything here, unless I've missed it ... The only other person who might be writing a web framework (apart from Kanen of course) was Jeremy, who used to post here. In fact, given the rocket theme, I would be surprised if it wasn't him...

newdep
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Re: newLISP on Rockets

Post by newdep »

Nice initiative (nslookup newlisponrails.com) Sounds better then Ruby on Rails for sure ... ;-)
Ill keep an eye on it...
-- (define? (Cornflakes))


Darth.Severus
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Re: newLISP on Rockets

Post by Darth.Severus »

Oh, I just started to learn how dragonfly works, as a complete beginner in webdesign. I started this wiki dragonfly-newlisp.wikidot.com, and planned to announce it soon. This newLisp on Rockets project seems to be interesting to me, cause there may be more interessting discussions about how all that stuff works.

TedWalther
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Re: newLISP on Rockets

Post by TedWalther »

I really love it; I was wondering when newLISP would get something more analogous to Ruby on Rails. I hope Jeremy goes more down the path of Django, while incorporating good ideas from Rails and Drupal. Which is how I see newLISP; it goes down the path of C/Unix, while incorporating good bits from all the other languages, like Rexx, Modula, Scheme, etc.
Cavemen in bearskins invaded the ivory towers of Artificial Intelligence. Nine months later, they left with a baby named newLISP. The women of the ivory towers wept and wailed. "Abomination!" they cried.

hilti
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Re: newLISP on Rockets

Post by hilti »

@Darth Severus
Oh, I just started to learn how dragonfly works, as a complete beginner in webdesign.
Isn't http://www.rundragonfly.com a good starting point to learn Dragonfly? Greg and I wrote a lot documentation to get used to the simple development cycle when using Dragonfly.

What's missing?

Cheers
Marc
--()o Dragonfly web framework for newLISP
http://dragonfly.apptruck.de

jopython
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Re: newLISP on Rockets

Post by jopython »

Is dragonfly maintained anymore? Looks like it has not been updated since 2010!

Darth.Severus
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Re: newLISP on Rockets

Post by Darth.Severus »

hilti wrote: Isn't http://www.rundragonfly.com a good starting point to learn Dragonfly? Greg and I wrote a lot documentation to get used to the simple development cycle when using Dragonfly.
What's missing?
Sorry for my late answer, I was distracted by other problems.
I'm realy happy and thankfull that rundragonfly.com exists, but when I was reading there I thought it was written by someone who has to much experience in doing webdesign und programming, and is blind for beginner problems. I even had no clue how to start creating something, I was just overwhelmed by all that stuff I should know or understand without explanation, and didn't know what I had to learn first, and so on. I even thought I could do everything in nL without knowing something about HTML and JS. Newlisp is also my first programming language I'm realy learning (ignoring some C64-Basic). I'm a bit experienced in it, but I also was not doing much web stuff with it before I tried to understand Dragonfly. This is why I started this wiki @dragonfly-newlisp.wikidot.com/, my writings there are the best explanation.
I've read the introducion in HTML5 on w3schools.com since then, a bit about CSS and JS, and will go on with that. Right now I'm writing nL-scripts which are creating several HTML sites using content from other sources. Go on learning dragonfly or/and Newlisp on Rockets will be the next step then.

itistoday
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Re: newLISP on Rockets

Post by itistoday »

I just came across this today. I'm very confused. I can't figure out who the author is, or why they decided to create this project from scratch instead of forking our work and modifying it, considering how much work we did and how small this community is.

Plus, just skimming through their docs, they're clearly missing a lot of the functionality that Dragonfly has. If they wanted to come up with a completely different framework, why not at least build off of the dragonfly-db code I wrote? No offense to the author, but dragonfly-db has far better support for manipulating databases (like ORM using ObjNL), and already includes a wrapper for sqlite. They could have used their efforts to add additional database support to dragonfly-db, by adding a postgresql or mysql wrapper for example.

It's true that Dragonfly hasn't been updated in quite a while, but it's a really mature web framework and very powerful. I use it to this day to power my web stores and integration with PayPal, and it has served me faithfully.

I think whoever is responsible for newLISP on Rockets is very talented, and did a great job on the design of the site. I just feel it's a shame they decided not to build off of our code. :(

(Note: I've been neglecting visiting these forums, so if I don't respond to replies, please accept my apologies in advance. You can always tweet at me to get my attention: @taoeffect).
Get your Objective newLISP groove on.

cormullion
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Re: newLISP on Rockets

Post by cormullion »

I wanted a framework that simplified database work and jQuery access, something that Dragonfly didn't do, and wasn't likely to do as development seems to have stopped.
I think Jeremy must have assumed that Dragonfly had been abandoned and took it off in a new direction.

itistoday
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Re: newLISP on Rockets

Post by itistoday »

cormullion wrote:
I wanted a framework that simplified database work and jQuery access, something that Dragonfly didn't do, and wasn't likely to do as development seems to have stopped.
I think Jeremy must have assumed that Dragonfly had been abandoned and took it off in a new direction.
Does Jeremy have a user account on this forum?

To say he "took it off in a new direction" would mean that he used some of the code it had. As far as I can tell (from a *very* brief look), he started a new framework from scratch.

I also am not sure what wasn't simple about DF.DB, and I don't see what jQuery has to do with a backend web framework...
Get your Objective newLISP groove on.

rickyboy
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Re: newLISP on Rockets

Post by rickyboy »

Greg, it looks like Jeremy just wanted to hack on his own thing. Nothin' wrong with that.
(λx. x x) (λx. x x)

cormullion
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Re: newLISP on Rockets

Post by cormullion »

Jeremy used to be here - but now of course he has his own forum! :)

He acknowledges the influence of Dragonfly in the source code, and there are some snippets of Rockets code that I remember seeing before in Dragonfly. Perhaps it was the overall approach of Dragonfly that inspired and enabled the development of Rockets rather than the existing codebase, who knows? (I see that he reported an issue to you too! https://github.com/taoeffect/dragonfly-newlisp/issues :)

itistoday
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Re: newLISP on Rockets

Post by itistoday »

I don't understand the reasons he gave for starting his own framework from scratch, but w/e.

I just updated Dragonfly to 0.71 btw.

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=4360
Get your Objective newLISP groove on.

conan
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Re: newLISP on Rockets

Post by conan »

Well it surely looks like your framework is unmaintained. Now you post there's a new version, so I wanted to give it a try, followed README indications and this is what I got for the example:

Code: Select all

ERR: invalid function : (load-files-in-dir (string DRAGONFLY_ROOT "/lib") ".lsp$")
I don't want to diminish your work, but it surely needs a face washing.

You must agree with me that a software that claims to be stable and shows an error just by following stated instructions is kind of disappointing.

itistoday
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Re: newLISP on Rockets

Post by itistoday »

conan wrote:Well it surely looks like your framework is unmaintained. Now you post there's a new version, so I wanted to give it a try, followed README indications and this is what I got for the example:

Code: Select all

ERR: invalid function : (load-files-in-dir (string DRAGONFLY_ROOT "/lib") ".lsp$")
I don't want to diminish your work, but it surely needs a face washing.

You must agree with me that a software that claims to be stable and shows an error just by following stated instructions is kind of disappointing.
Hmm... I'm not seeing that. I just did the whole thing from scratch, here's the proof:

Code: Select all

Last login: Sat Jun 22 15:18:46 on ttys004
taoeffect:~ gslepak$ git clone git@github.com:taoeffect/dragonfly-newlisp.git
Cloning into 'dragonfly-newlisp'...
remote: Counting objects: 2293, done.
remote: Compressing objects: 100% (1391/1391), done.
remote: Total 2293 (delta 874), reused 2273 (delta 860)
Receiving objects: 100% (2293/2293), 2.55 MiB | 2.05 MiB/s, done.
Resolving deltas: 100% (874/874), done.
taoeffect:~ gslepak$ cd dragonfly-newlisp/
taoeffect:dragonfly-newlisp gslepak$ git submodule init
Submodule 'example-site/dragonfly-framework/plugins-inactive/db' (git://github.com/taoeffect/dragonfly-db.git) registered for path 'example-site/dragonfly-framework/plugins-inactive/db'
taoeffect:dragonfly-newlisp gslepak$ git submodule update
Cloning into 'example-site/dragonfly-framework/plugins-inactive/db'...
remote: Counting objects: 6, done.
remote: Compressing objects: 100% (6/6), done.
remote: Total 6 (delta 0), reused 6 (delta 0)
Receiving objects: 100% (6/6), 15.33 KiB, done.
Submodule path 'example-site/dragonfly-framework/plugins-inactive/db': checked out 'f9e56a033a7da860427340a7b1cbf0eb3e5bb749'
taoeffect:dragonfly-newlisp gslepak$ cd example-site/
taoeffect:example-site gslepak$ ./newlispServer
If all goes well visit http://localhost:8080 in your browser
The site loaded fine. Did you do the same thing I did there?
Get your Objective newLISP groove on.

conan
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Re: newLISP on Rockets

Post by conan »

The exact same thing:
Steps to reproduce
Steps to reproduce
steps.cropped.png (19.69 KiB) Viewed 4167 times
Result
Result
result.png (24 KiB) Viewed 4167 times

itistoday
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Re: newLISP on Rockets

Post by itistoday »

I assume that you didn't visit the page after hitting ^C... Did you try Cmd/Ctrl-Shift-R (or a different browser)?

Also, try following these instructions to get it running under Apache instead:

http://rundragonfly.com/dragonfly_welcome
Get your Objective newLISP groove on.

conan
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Re: newLISP on Rockets

Post by conan »

I was hesitant to join this topic, I didn't want this to become a dry discussion.

Just for completeness, I'll reply your questions before:
itistoday wrote:I assume that you didn't visit the page after hitting ^C... Did you try Cmd/Ctrl-Shift-R (or a different browser)?
Also, try following these instructions to get it running under Apache instead:
You're right, I went to the page before hitting CTRL-C, stopping the program was my reaction to seeing an error on loading the page. Yes, I've tried reloading and yes I've tried another browser. Last one just to tell you that I did, because by seeing the error one already knows is not a browser problem, but I hate to leave loose ends. And finally, no, I wont follow any instructions to try it on Apache, because that's not the point.

So, to the point: what I tried to tell you (and I think Cormullion was trying the same) is that no matter how cool Dragonfly was, it looks abandoned now and needs some love.

Even the simplest code, no matter how mature, needs some maintenance now and then. Wouldn't need even more maintenance something that attempts to work in a field that never stays still, that's constantly changing, like the web?

You complain that the author of Newlisp on Rockets didn't fork your work. However he states that he learned and used a lot from Dragonfly, so he did base on your work, he just didn't use the fork path. Maybe because he's learning, maybe because he preferred to pick stuff by hand. Who knows!

Anyway, I didn't mean to be harsh at you before, and I don't now. I was just trying to point that a software that claims maturity should work out of the box. Because if after following instructions you have to hunt a bug, or try this and that to make it work, then software isn't mature, isn't ready for production.

itistoday
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Re: newLISP on Rockets

Post by itistoday »

conan wrote:Even the simplest code, no matter how mature, needs some maintenance now and then. Wouldn't need even more maintenance something that attempts to work in a field that never stays still, that's constantly changing, like the web?

You complain that the author of Newlisp on Rockets didn't fork your work. However he states that he learned and used a lot from Dragonfly, so he did base on your work, he just didn't use the fork path. Maybe because he's learning, maybe because he preferred to pick stuff by hand. Who knows!
I generally agree with you, although I feel the word "complaining" is a bit harsh (personally). It's alright if you see it that way, but I see it as simply being dismayed at what you point out yourself, that Dragonfly needs maintenance, and it would have been nice if he helped us improve and maintain it.
Anyway, I didn't mean to be harsh at you before, and I don't now. I was just trying to point that a software that claims maturity should work out of the box. Because if after following instructions you have to hunt a bug, or try this and that to make it work, then software isn't mature, isn't ready for production.
Yes, I agree, please feel free to file an issue in Github. This the first time I've seen this issue though, so I hope you don't ding us too hard. Lots of other people have tried Dragonfly and it seems to have worked fine for them.
Get your Objective newLISP groove on.

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